In his ‘Think Act Be’ podcast, Seth Gillihan explains why he is so excited to look into the Dual Therapist Model for himself. (via YouTube)

Drs. Kelly Yanek and Michele Kinderman recently joined fellow psychologist Seth Gillihan on his Think Act Be podcast to discuss their new program to certify clinicians in the Dual Therapist Model — and may have gotten their first registrant.

“I am very interested in this approach,” Gillihan told his guests. “When I heard your description, I was sort of amazed to feel this sense that, Yes, I would love to do that. That sounds amazing.”

Gillihan, who specializes in mindful cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), has written multiple books on mindfulness and CBT.

The DTM training program covers everything from finding the right partner to building the dual therapist relationship — including trust, communication, and respect — and working with three people in the room, Michele explained. “There are lots of nuances that we’ve learned over the years, the hard way,” she told Gillihan.

“A lot of it is coming out of your comfort zone in general, being able to feel confident in taking a risk,” Kelly said. “Doing things out of the ordinary.”

“You have to be brave enough to challenge rules,” Michele added. “And you have to be able to leave your ego at the door.”

The conversation went beyond the training program to the doctors’ business, Wellness Outside the Box – Therapy Redefined, and their emphasis on finding joy in the everyday. You can listen to the full podcast here.

Today they practice their unique form of therapy on a 20-acre farm in Princeton, New Jersey, where they see clients together, modeling friendship, humor, connectedness, genuineness, and trust. Their Dual Therapist Model prevents burnout by allowing the clinicians to process sessions at the end of each day, immediately dealing with any issues that might arise.

They also use nature and the outdoors before, during, and after sessions and inject fun into their daily lives via walks around the pond, trips to rock-climbing gyms or ice cream parlors, or breaks on the porch with their therapy dog, Zippy.

Kelly and Michele explained they work within the legal and ethical guidelines of their profession, but they’re able to push boundaries, which benefits them and their clients. They’re noticing, however, that many of their peers don’t realize they have those same options.

“Hearing that there is something different, there’s another way to do something, can really be empowering to people,” Kelly told Gillihan. “So we’re hoping to model and train people in how to do that, and mentor and guide them in ways they can practice so they feel more confident in taking a bigger step toward something like this.”

More information on the Dual Therapist Model is available at, where you also can find details on upcoming presentations, and a TedX talk by Kelly and Michele. Their much-anticipated book arrives in the spring and will reveal how their friendship developed from the time their sons were in daycare, and how their respective backgrounds informed their approaches to psychotherapy and ultimately led them to the Dual Therapist Model.

“I’m so excited about the work you’re doing, and I’m excited to look into it more myself,” Gillihan said before wrapping up the podcast. “I really appreciate the two of you being willing to take that risk for yourselves initially, and to offer it to your clients, and to share this time with me.”

Listen to the podcast episode here.